Card Idiosyncrasies

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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

--cwc88--
I'm not sure how to make the current sequencing/mirror relationship work in physical form.  It seems the only thing that would truly replicate the sequencing (action from left to right, which is from BOTH player's perspectives because of the mirroring) would be, in a physical game, for Player 1's cards to sequence from Player 1's left to right and Player 2's to sequence from Player 2's left to right, regardless of whose turn it is,  and at the same time have the path-specific cards (including Minions/Barriers) interact in a mirror so that the cards in Player 1's path 1 would combat/interact with the cards in Player 2's path 1 (which is physically across from Player 1's path 5), and so on for paths 2/4.  This is obviously hard to keep track of and very difficult to plan for while laying out one's cards.  It also significantly changes the decision-making process for where to play cards with a spatial effect AND combat considerations such as Giant Volta/Stormship.


A simpler option would be for the action in any given physical game of Spellcraft to move from left to right on Player 1's turn and from right to left on Player 2's turn.  However, this is different from the game as we know it, since, for example, my Fey Spirit would be attacking first on my turn and being attacked last on my opponent's, my Spell Net (in my path 5/opponent's path 1) would be triggered before my Mesmer (in my path 2/my opponent's path 4), etc.

The game would clearly work this way, it would just be different from how things are now.  

This is one of the bigger impediments I've thought of that would make a physical game difficult or at the very least different.  Drawing a random spell/minion/whatever from one's deck/wherever could be accomplished by simply targeting the card of the chosen type that is nearest the top of the deck, then shuffling.  I suppose one would need to see an opponent's hand with cards like Miasma/Mind Transfer.

Also, there would need to be some proof of the casting cost of traps....
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

MikeGoblin
Administrator
Oh well, no need to play a physical version then when the digital is so convenient :-)
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

--cwc88--
Actually a far simpler and better solution just occurred to me: simply decide before the game begins which side of the board would be the "start" and which the "end".  Sequencing would therefore always be from left to right for one player and from right to left for the other. A minor adjustment in thinking/planning.
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

MikeGoblin
Administrator
I had the same thought :)

Great minds think alike eh :)

I'll have a look between feasts over the coming weeks :)

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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

MikeGoblin
Administrator
In reply to this post by --cwc88--
To clarify - I do mean in the digital version, although it's good you have solved for the physical too ;)

Actually while I'm on this thread - looking back there was a lot of talk of beta test volunteers - sign up via Feedback email please :)
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

--cwc88--
Two Ravagers in play will destroy each other if they are the only two minions controlled by a player (presumably each will destroy a minion even if one of the Ravagers is targeted first by the other Ravager, if a player has more than just these two 5-cost minions in play, though I haven't observed this).

This is not what I expected based on Rule 8.1.B (the header of which I will change to "Start of Turn Effects", so as to include minions in addition to auras/items).  I expected the left-most Ravager to trigger first, destroying the second Ravager before it was "looked at" and could, itself, trigger.

Also, do effects from the Item/Aura row trigger and resolve before, during, or after the triggering/resolution of the minions/barriers row?  That is, will Ravager not "see" minions that were in play moments ago but got destroyed by Burning World?
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

MikeGoblin
Administrator
Everything that should trigger on the start of your turn will - whether there is anything left for them to affect or not is another matter :)

At the moment the order of processing of triggered card effects will be left to right and front row to back.
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

--cwc88--
This isn't an issue of an effect triggering without a target; it's an issue of an effect of a card no longer in play triggering "after" the card is in the discard pile.  

This is based on the left-to-right sequencing: Ravager in slot 1 destroys Ravager in slot 2, sending it to discard pile.  Ravager in slot 2 "then" destroys Ravager in slot 1.  It sounds like what you're saying is that, while the effects process from left to right, they all get triggered (and effectively "lined-up" to process) simultaneously, and that the already-triggered effect of a card in the discard pile (or "on it's way", perhaps?) will still process even with the card no longer in play?

Just want to be clear so I know how to amend the rulebook.

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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

MikeGoblin
Administrator
Yes exactly that would match my expectation.
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

--cwc88--
Ok, thanks Mike.
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

Quintivarium
In reply to this post by Quintavarium
Two interestings occurred to me tonight as I was practicing my jungle tactics:

1.  An AI dactyl used its special against one of my ancient oaks.  Both cards were removed from the board.  However, I was surprized to observe that my ancient oak special (three damage to opposing force) did not occur.  The dactyl description does say cards are "removed" (as opposed to "destroyed") so I assume this is intentional.  I do note that at least the dactyl wound up in a discard pile -- I did not notice if the oak did or not.

2.  I played first ambush, then undead tritons opposite a mantid, expecting to see the triton trigger both the trap destroying the mantid, and the mantid special, destroying the triton.  Instead, the trap was fired (destroying the mantid), the triton special was triggered (stealing one strength from the mantid), but the mantid special was never triggered.  I believe there are some sequencing rules that I still do not understand.
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

Quintivarium
In reply to this post by Quintavarium
I have one more observation -- which may actually be an error.

The Saberine (jungle) is supposed to move "to face the enemy minion with the lowest strength".  I have observed that the saberine does not move if it is facing a barrier of lower strength than the lowest strength enemy minion, although it will move from a higher strength barrier to a lower strength minion.  I believe the situations I observed were the following:  1.  A 0/2 living maze (forest) was played opposite my saberine on the same turn a 2/2 wailing banshee (swamp) was played on an open lane.  At the start of my turn, my saberine did not move to the banshee column as I would have expected.  2.  My saberine was opposite a necropolis (swamp) that had grown to 3/2.  An enemy zombie mob (1/5, swamp) was played.  My saberine did move to oppose the zombie.
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

markturnergoblin
thanks, we will look into that one.
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

Quintivarium
In reply to this post by Quintavarium
I just discovered jungle faction's snake pit trap works a little differently than most other minion affecting traps.  If I play multiple minion affecting traps, generally all trigger with the first enemy minion played.  For example, if I have three cinderbox traps in play, and my opponent plays a firebird (health 1) all three cinderboxes trigger, doing 3 damage and effectively wasting 2 traps.  Likewise, if I have lost at sea and cinderbox both in play, both trigger even if only one is needed.  But the AI just played a firebird into a lane where I had snake pit while I also had a cinderbox in play.  The cinderbox triggered, destroying the firebird, but the snake pit did not trigger, and remained in play.
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

Molotch
Quick question (hopefully) from PvC game last night.
I destroyed Ominous Egg. The computer presumably replaced it with a random minion (I did not see what) I lost 2 life (I think), my Lost at Sea card then acitivated and removed the minion. Therefore I did not get to see the card that initially replaced Ominous Egg.
My question is this; why did the minion that was destroyed not end up on top of the Discard (Ominous Egg was there). Was it because the card, once destroyed, had attributes that sent it back to Hand or Deck?
This brings up one point about the game that can be difficult for newcomers. This computer rolls through it's moves at such a pace that you can't really see the card combo strategies being employed. This makes it difficult to know what you are trying to counter in the future.
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

MikeGoblin
Administrator

Hey Molotch,
It's a fair point, we have gradually made the computer player faster and faster to satisfy the more experienced players who know that the computer is thinking before it does :)

I think the addition of a Discard Pile (DP) viewer (on my list) will help a little towards this, but against a human opponent who plays quickly you'll still have the same issue sometimes.

For this specific case I expect others will be more familiar with the behaviour and can explain the detail - Quint, Val?


On 3 Mar 2014, at 15:05, Molotch [via Spellcraft - Descent into Chaos] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Quick question (hopefully) from PvC game last night.
I destroyed Ominous Egg. The computer presumably replaced it with a random minion (I did not see what) I lost 2 life (I think), my Lost at Sea card then acitivated and removed the minion. Therefore I did not get to see the card that initially replaced Ominous Egg.
My question is this; why did the minion that was destroyed not end up on top of the Discard (Ominous Egg was there). Was it because the card, once destroyed, had attributes that sent it back to Hand or Deck?
This brings up one point about the game that can be difficult for newcomers. This computer rolls through it's moves at such a pace that you can't really see the card combo strategies being employed. This makes it difficult to know what you are trying to counter in the future.


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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

Valentino
The only card I can think about with such effect would be Ethernal knight.

You should see it moving from the discard pile to the deck. That's a quick animation anyway.

However I cannot explain the 2 life loss with such a card.
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

Valentino
I have a feedback about this situation as well.

There are times in which I would like to see all of the discard pile to understand if it's wise to play a card or not. I cannot do that as today I can only read the last card.

I think you should open a kind of popup window showing all card - perhaps the order does not matter unless you add some cards in which it does.

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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

Quintivarium
In reply to this post by Molotch
I haven't really studied the order in which cards land on the discard pile.  It might simply be the egg landed on top of the minion.  I don't know and this is a bit counter intuitive.  Did you note the factions the AI was playing?  That might provide clues.  For instance, an eternal knight (swamp) goes directly babk to the player's deck -- but it is too expensive to be in an ominous egg (it could be in a giant egg).

It is also helpful to note how you destroyed the egg.  There are no minions that inflict life damage on you when played.  But if destroying the egg also destroyed one of your minions, you might have triggered a burning blood aura (fire) which inflicts two damage.  If you used a spell, you might have triggered the jungle trap backfire which would inflict life damage.  That's all I can think of, but I could easily be missing something.
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Re: Card Idiosyncrasies

Valentino
Yes,  I confirm what Quinti said. I did not consider the pp cost. It cannot be an ethernal knight
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