Damage mix

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Damage mix

Valentino
This post was updated on .
- deleted -

Sorry guys - I was playing with the features of the forum and I deleted this message...
Art
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Re: Damage mix

Art
An amazing read.  Never think of the game this way before.  It's always good to know more about the game, however, I feel like there are many ways to explain the game, this is one way to  simplify the game.  Being said, I don't completely agree with your number of big guns.  IMO big guns are risky, but the fact that they are risky makes them heavy dmg dealer.  

Another bad thing about these so called formula is that they diminish creativity,  everyone especially new players, would blindly follow.  Making it only one way to build a deck.  I can already see a trend in new players deck.

I wanted to add that surprised is a big element in pvp.  If u cannot figure what ur opponent would do next but they can see through your deck, you are at a disadvantage.  

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Re: Damage mix

.Confused.
Couldn't agree with you more, Orange (Art)!!!

Do you (Valentino) really suggest that the game is about mixing big minions in the right amounts? I find this is a very simplistic approach to the game. I would also point, in your own defense, that you do not (or at least did not, before the new year) follow the ideas that you explained above. Your decks that did well have always relied on combination of cards, i.e.: sharks+energize; aquamancers+direct damage & so forth.

It would be a disfavor to new players, but to pretend that there are ratios of big minions that have importance. I have many decks that rely on small minions (sacrificed to a blood orb, for example) and would have your big guns ineffective. Victory is much more about creativity and versatility in cards combination. Talk to Mark about it as well, he specializes in creative decks with little to no "big guns" minions; even trying to avoid rare cards.

One thing that I'd add, but will not make you win (I do dare to pretend that there is more to spellcraft than mere victory) is that a deck's theme can be a lot of fun!

Hordes of Kobos!
Ghouls!
Mages!
Cute little animals!
Mom & sons (dragons with whelp, pterodactyls & chick)!

I say that cards that go well together, in restriction to choosing only 2 factions, is the key to victory. I had a text about balance in the game; this is the key to victory: how will the balance of power tip in your favor? Choose one manner & make sure all your cards, in versatile combination, will target that goal!

That's what I say anyways...

Cheers,

Confused
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Re: Damage mix

Quintivarium
Confused, I think I have to side with Valentino one this one.  Of course, there will be well-conceived exceptions to any general rule like those Valentino has suggested, and I don't think Valentino was in any way dismissing the importance of cards working in good combination.  And I'm not certain Valentino's proportions are ideal (although I bet they are not bad).

But in terms of importance, making efficient use of power points, and maintaining a good mix of quick response and power response cards in hand is an issue that arises every turn, exploiting a clever combination is an issue that arises only when the correct cards are in play.

I have the following challenge for you: create a random deck (or even an intentionally bad deck) subject to the following strictures:

1.  Choose 12 cards from amongst the following (big guns).  Make sure at least 4 have strength 4 or higher: ruby dragon, pyrohydra, sea dragon, dragonfish, deepsea thing, forest dragon, deepwood ash, underdark worm, shadow dragon, darkling assassin, deepspawn, bone dragon, ancient ghost, undead giant, cloud dragon, jungle dragon, giant constrictor.
2.  Choose 20 minions of cost 3 or less with between 6 and 10 at cost 3, and none at cost 0 unless there is a reason to have them (nail clippers).
3.  Choose 8 cards that are spells auras, traps, or items with no more than 2 copies of any one card.  And exclude the following: catastrophe, ashes, inferno, heart of fire, siege cannon, re-emergence, triton ritual, rainbow pearl, essence exchange, accursed, mortality, doomsong, uncontinue, blown away, powerdive, spellstorm, chronochime, gravity well, spell book, law of the jungle, sacrificial blade, smash.

Also create a second deck (one you've never tried before) based upon including clever combinations and themes.

Finally play each about 20 times, keeping track of your results (not just win/loss, but how the deck felt playing).  Tell me if you feel the same way about the usefulness of formulas after this experience.

Please note: I'm not claiming formulas can replace creative thinking; I think the two work well in conjunction.  I bet, even starting with the formula, you find more creative combinations than you think.
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Re: Damage mix

markturnergoblin
In reply to this post by .Confused.
One good tactic is to make decks less predictable. Having 4 of each card may be good in some ways,but sneaking the odd different card in can get you a win when that they dont expect. maybe just one lost at sea,or one tenticle from below in your deck rather than 4 of the optimal card. I find if you know what their card mix is you have a big advantage.
  pterodactyl and chicks ,I'm going to build that deck.
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Re: Damage mix

Quintivarium
In reply to this post by Art
Art wrote
I can already see a trend in new players deck.
I am not highly concerned.  Already, probably 3/4ths of all decks I encounter revolve around one of the following:

1.  Ocean/underearth with aquamancers, deepsea things, ocean dragons, and lost/taken under.
2.  Fire/ocean with cards like pyrohydra, lava dragon, rage, burning world, diarect damage spells, giant octopus, giant volta, aquamancer.
3.  fire/forest with cards like pyrohydra, lava dragon, rage, burning world, direct damage spells, primeval flame. living essence, wild growth, giant oak.
4.  Ocean/air playing off of arch mages, aquamancers, sea dragons, and the ready spell.

If anything, the formula decks will get us away from the repeated reliance on combos involving aquamancer, pyrohydra, taken under, meteor and the ilk.  I would expect to see greater variety of both decks and cards -- not to mention combinations!
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Re: Damage mix

.Confused.
Quintivarium, I do think that you meant well by your proposed experience, but I would never go through such a tedious process. I did look into my Moms & Sons deck and it looks pretty much like what you suggested, apart for the big creatures, 4 in total of strength 4. Difference is I spent 3 minutes creating it and it was about theme, not excel spreadsheets. It actually won it's first & only PVP game so far. No tests were done before I played with it, I went straight to the fun part.

Granted, we benefit from a lot more experience than most players, but still, with all due respect, I refute the idea that ├╝ber-analysis and excel spreadsheets are important, if relevant, to winning Spellcraft matches.

We obviously reflect different ways to plan and build decks. Your (Valentino & yourself) opinions have been the only ones in the forums since the new year (for lack of contribution of other players, myself included) and I thought I'd post a few of my own contributions, just to represent diversity of opinions. None of our opinions can be better than the other, since whatever makes you happy is what is right for you!

Cheers,

Confused
PS: Master Goblin, my mom is stronger than your mom. Wait for me after school, near the bike rack & bring your birds! :D
Art
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Re: Damage mix

Art
I m sure I'm going to hang out with your moms.

I m also not saying which side is stronger. But what valentino does, is not for everyone else.  He is very picky in decks.  Imo at the moment, he is the strongest in term of statistics.  I just don't want to see new people using similar decks too often.

I agree with what mark said totally.
Art
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Re: Damage mix

Art
In addition, I also don't want to see players summoned two big guns in two turns and quited on the third.
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Re: Damage mix

Quintivarium
In reply to this post by .Confused.
I hope to hear more from your more spontaneos style.  Differing perspectives benefit everyone.
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Re: Damage mix

Valentino
Background: I wrote this message in the morning just before going out and am back only now and did not expect so many comments.

There are so many things I would like to say given so many contributions and I'll try to stay structured because we expanded the topic too much.

1) First of all and most important: thank you to anyone adding his own opinion to what I write. That's appreciated even when it deviates from what I write and add further value to the forum. I respect your opinion.

2) I confirm that most of my decks have 8 to 12 big guns. It is a recurring theme. Usually when I have 8 big guns I add 4 spells to recover minions from discard pile so the equation is still balanced.

3) When you must make an analysis you must stick to the most common scenarios. As I explained above the most common scenario for my deck is that amount of big guns. Obviously if you design a deck with Vortex then you are a fool to add 12 big guns - but if I had to add all the details then I'd stay the whole day writing an essay which perhaps you will not even read fully.

4) Surprise is a big element of PVP. I do agree with this. However I think suprise comes more from spells than from minions - with some exceptions which are about special abilities embedded in minions.

5) My argument is a simplification and is not about a complete design of a deck. If you do few math in my numbers you figure out that 8 + 20 = 28 cards = 70% of the deck. the complementary 30% is about spells and combos.

6) I am not discussing creativity or fun in my arguments. My analysis is about finding the optimum scenario. Using cards which modify the standard battle environment (auras, items) is not part of my analysis as I must keep it simple. That is what any analyst would do.

7) I encourage Confused to have a more positive and costructive way to structure his own arguments. A positive attitude is a key to learn from both sides.

8) My proportions are not exactly the ideal ones. Perhaps 32 minions on the overall is too much. The formula is very rough.

9) Be aware that designing a deck is an art. Combos are a very important part of deck building but are not covered by this topic. This topic was meant to be all about the number of hits to win.

10) There are aspects of the analysis which Excel cannot cover. I use it only for topics I can cover usually. I do it because I use it on a daily basis for my job and have the skills to do it - but I do not denigrate other players which have a different approach. And I do expect the same respect to my approach from other players, especially great ones such as Confused. BTW: It is a long time I am not using Excel...and Quinti and did not even complete the analysis about power point mix in deck design!

11) I never said my opinion is better than the other ones. I just won a tournment. That's it. I lost many games with you guys ;) Please keep comments cool.
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Re: Damage mix

.Confused.
Hi Valentino, hope you had a good weekend. As I understood your argument, you suggested 32 to 36 minions per deck; including 8 to 12 of them costing 5 power. I disagreed. Very much. The rest was not about your argument or you. I tried to help the rest of you players (yes, you!) plan your decks wisely by sharing my opinion. Then, you have a choice to share or not whatever you read and maybe even... Contribute! This forum is for all and you should not feel intimidated to write your thoughts. Regular loud-mouth with eighty-something posts done, my 2 cents are not worth more than yours. But I share them, as I encourage you to do. This forum would be gaining much from more participation variety! ... Says your humble loud-mouth ;) So... how's your minion ratio? Found a few ways to counter big minions yet? How do you deal damage, if it's not with big minions? What do you (again, yes you!) understand when you read damage mix? Cheers! ConfusedPS: forgive all the smileys, text's formatting was whacked!
Art
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Re: Damage mix

Art
This post was updated on .
The way I see it is that this game is fun because there are so many things for u to discover yourself, not someone told u  directly.

In the end, this is a game.  Stop caring about winning or losing that much.  Why can't I put a card in the deck because I like that picture? What's wrong?

If u play this game because it's fun, u will keep playing and u will learn and become better and better.
If u play this because you can win,  you will soon give up because there is always a deck that can beat ur deck.  Sometimes, the deck choice has already decide the result, but why not play it seriously until last round.

I had quite a few time met ppl that said really bad hand, no card to play and give up the match.  I couldn't be angrier after meeting one of those ppl.
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Re: Damage mix

Valentino
In reply to this post by .Confused.
I usually have 70% of minions in my decks. This is the real data from my best decks:

deck1: 8 big guns 20 nail cutters
deck2: 8 big guns 20 nail cutters
deck3: 7 big guns 24 nail cutters
deck4: 4 big guns 24 nail cutters
deck5: 16 big guns 16 nail cutters
deck6: 8 big guns 16 nail cutters
deck7: 8 big guns 16 nail cutters

I'd say that the ideal numbers are 8 big guns and 20 nail cutters

Damage mix was meant to be the ratio between big guns and nail cutters
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Re: Damage mix

Quintivarium
I'm curious.  Exactly what do you consider big guns?  Are dangerous strength 3 cards like giant constrictors or archmages big guns?  What about cards like sky hydra, and deep spawn with the potential to become big?  What about stitched golems?  Do I correctly assume both aquamancers and darkling assassins are nail trimmers since they inflict little damage, even though they are very dangerous.
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Re: Damage mix

Valentino
Again this is about a stylized modelling of the game. Grayshadows are not dealt.

For my example I used 5 PP minions as big guns. However I do not like low strength big guns unless they have a combo with something else.

In such case you pay the difference of strength to gain an advantage through combos.

The key message of this thread is that we should count the number of hits required to win.
Art
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Re: Damage mix

Art
In reply to this post by Quintivarium
I think what Valentino thinks is that minion is the most effective way to deal damages, far more effective than spells. Even though u can use spell to destroy my minion, he can keep up with the minion supply.  That's why he needs to come up with his power point formula (very clever),  and the 3-2 tandem , and the ratio between big guns and nail cutters to optimise card draws.  He believes his deck can more or less recreate same number amount of threats every matches at certain round.

And he has a point because most of the time big guns only can be dealt by meteor which is also 5, why not just use big guns instead, it can be played anytime. or taken under, 4 stars which left 1 star to do nothing most of the time, so again is 5 star cancelling 5 stars.  Why not be the active one instead of passive?
And for 3-2 tandem, not a lot of 5star combination can deal with them at the same time. With his formula,  He is making the deck that has many many 3-2 tandem situations.  With our normal deck, we have a bigger portion of non minions, which makes us less chances to put up with his threats. And u fall and he wins.

A very basic and useful tools that is very true and effective.
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Re: Damage mix

.Confused.
Hope it benefits some players, others than the experienced ones that posted here so far:

I average 20 minions/barriers per deck, apart from where I really need a lot of canon fodder (kobos for a blood orb, for example). I think that 5-cost minions are a huge risk, because they are so easily neutered (vortex, combat immunity, blocking with canon fodder, miasma, lost, gargantula, for examples). You have to spend your whole turn just to play a single minion. I find it too inefficient.

Main argument: The cards have a lot of nice abilities that can be exploited to tip the balance in your favour. Balance: open/closed minions lane; number of cards left in deck (for a discard deck, where you actually aim for lane closing balance); number of cards in hand (played an accursed? play another!).

Stating the obvious: the game grants a win for reducing enemy life points to zero; or when their deck is exhausted and they have to draw a card. Minion damage is but one way to achieve one of the two victory conditions. Many matches I've won with a power dive spell on an overloaded fast creature; by a few spell storms or backfires; blood orb, as mentioned earlier. That's what I call damage mix! Some minions will have come through, assisted by a good variety of auras, spells & items.

It is to enhance a true diversity and boost player creativity that I can't wait for desert & ice! These will focus on items & auras and can only enhance damage mix and deck creativity. Mountain (focusing on barriers) will be a challenge and I can only suppose we'll see even more players trying to tip the "balance of cards in deck" in their favour: reducing your deck to zero, while they stall your minions!

That, methinks, is promising. But after all, i am... confused :D
You, the noob, what do you have to say about that?

Confused
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Re: Damage mix

Valentino
I am not a big fan of auras/items/spells. I think that the main damage comes from minions. Obviously this is my style and it does not mean that it is the only one or the best one.

However I think that we are changing topic. Big guns and nail cutters were ment as minion only because I assumed damage comes mostly from minions. We can apply to anything else if you prefer. That does not affect the mathematical concept of roundings in my original thread.

Can we keep my thread on the line I meant it to be, which is the number of hits required to win? I am more than happy to embed auras, items, spells and traps in the classification of big guns and nail cutters if this is what you want.
 
Art
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Re: Damage mix

Art
I don't really understand why is number of hits important.  Maybe u can explain further?
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