Review my quickest deck

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Review my quickest deck

Valentino
As most of you are aware I already published my quickest deck - which is anyway not the best one.

Just to be clear I am a big fan of quick decks but this one is pretty unusual for my style.

However given that I already disclosed it, I'd like to review it and advice if it can become quicker or even more aggressive.

4x sea dragon
4x razor sharks
4x triton aquamancers
4x triton hunters
4x shimmerpearl
4x lost at sea
4x aeromancers
4x energize
4x tornado
4x storm core
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Re: Review my quickest deck

Quintivarium
I've not had a chance to try this deck yet, sorry.  But to be sure I use the deck in the way you intended (as well as to see if there are disposable/exchangable cards), I'd like to share what I see as the primary purpose of each card.  Please confirm that my vision conforms to yours.  Let me start with the most obvious, proceding to the most dubious.

energize -- the deck theme card, used to gain quick damage when razor sharks or sea dragons are played.  Can also be used to grant aquamancer immediate use of special power

sea dragon -- strong minion for whenever needed.  Also draws back energize card and could be energised when played for quick damage

razor sharks -- for high damage.  Likely energized when first played.

aeromancer -- for quick damage and to facilitate drawing energize.

shimmerpearls, storm core -- to facilitate playing an extra card in one round, especially energize on dragons, but also to get an extra minion in play or to tap the deck for a new card.

triton hunters -- aside from obvious use as cost 2 minion, to recall lost at sea to your hand

triton aquamancer -- because it is an outstanding and grossly underpriced card?  Also for its versitility, its ability to clear paths for high damage minions, and as a decoy to protect units like razor sharks that are more directly valuable in this deck.

tornado -- to create, if needed, a clear lane on which an aeromancer, or shark+energize can operate.  Also a temporary means to remove troublesome minions, barriers, or items.

lost at sea -- to slow opponent; to delay the blocking of sharks and dragons with big minions.


Untested reactions:

1.  If you are using tornado defensively, there are probably better options.  If you are using tornado to exploit its open lane, you may want more minions with the quick trait.

2.  Lost at sea is not an obvious choice to me (although it might be effective).  And if lost at sea is not ideal, the triton hunters may be disposable too.  One nice thing about blue/white decks is that since spell net and lost at sea have the same cost, it is hard for opponents to distinguish which has been played -- hence opponents must be cautious about both minion deployment and spell casting.  This is enhanced if a given deck contains both types of trap.  Carrying only one is somewhat akin to always choosing rock in a game of rock, paper, scissors.

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Re: Review my quickest deck

Valentino
Your analysis of my deck is perfect. There is only one element missing:

I use tornado also to recall sea dragon when it gets damaged before It goes to the discard pile. Then I cast it again to redraw one more time energize.

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Re: Review my quickest deck

Valentino
1. I don't feel this deck needs more minions with quick because it is full of energize. Maybe tornado is not really needed?

2. never tried spell net. I wanted just to be sure that opponent does not add barriers when sharks and dragons start to hammer.

Could you please test it and give me a full feedback?

thank you,

Vale
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Re: Review my quickest deck

Quintivarium
regarding 1.  Having played the deck, I agree about not needing quick given the prevalence of energize.  I think tornados are handy, but I don't know if they are best.  Four of them seemed too many.  I will say trying to use tornados to recall endangered sea dragons (or sharks) was often too slow -- my opponent grew a strength 4 opponent to strength 5, then inflicted 1 point damage.  When I must attack on my turn, I lose a second health.  Then the opponent kills my dragon on his next turn, before my tornado kicks in.  The only good thing is the tornado removes an augmented enemy.


regarding your response 2.  I assume you mean to prevent minions from being thrown in the way as blockers.  You do realize lost at sea does not stop the playing of actual barriers.  Spell net does have two drawbacks: you do not have obvious air cards to replace, and the spells you capture may be recalled from your discard pile in place of energize.  On the other hand, it may be just as important to prevent dragons and sharks from being meteored or taken under as it is to prevent them from being blocked.  And if I know I face lost at sea, I am uninhibited about playing spells.  If I don't know whether I face spell net or lost at sea, my next card, whether spell or minion is likely to be cheap (and if a spell, harmless to me).  And a choice of traps for you might be handy.
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Re: Review my quickest deck

Quintivarium
In reply to this post by Valentino
I have now run your deck through the same tests that I use on my own, but I have not yet tried any modifications/fixes.  As you are well aware, our styles are very different; some things uncomfortable to me might be perfectly fine for you.

Overall, the deck was 14-7 vs. AI decks I considered reasonable tests.  Normally, I would want a deck to perform a little better than this, but I acknowledge two things.  First, this deck hit an unusual number of very challenging AI decks and I'm not sure my best decks would have done much better.  And second, there are decks that play well vs. AI and others that play well vs. humans.  I think this deck would fare better vs. humans.


What worked:
1.  I thought the power point utilization of the deck was excellent - about the only wasted power points were on the second rounds of storm cores.
2.  Aquamancers almost single handedly won 4 games.  The combination with energize, although not new, is very powerful.
3.  The tornado-aeromancer combo is amazing, but it begs for more spells.  Human opponents may be more likely to target this combo, however.  But many of the cards that would break this combo are also needed vs. aquamancers.
4.  Shark - energize is a nice combo and a potent threat.


What didn't work
1.  I had major problems with the minion balance.  There were probably a dozen times when I had 5 or more cards in hand with no minion, but a desperate need for one.  I frequently found myself using storm cores and shimmer pearls simply to search for minions.  Nearly every loss was due to not having minions when needed .
2.  Energize was almost over-drawn.  I often had 4 energize in hand with nothing useful to play it on.
3.  Too many combinations require 3 or more cards.  They were amazing when they came up, but then they never again appeared -- they are too improbable.  Even combos like dragon / energize / storm core or shimmer pearl -- for all the ways energize was brought to hand, simply did not arise often.  It was even worse if I wanted tornado too.
4.  I usually had more tornado cards than I needed.  A couple of tornados are very nice, but 3 or 4 in hand is just too many.


Things I intend to try:
1. adding at least 4 minions (probably replacing excess tornados, but maybe lost at sea and either shimmer pearls or storm core -- depending on faction needed.)
2. greater spell selection.  I'm thinking either back to the depths to recall dragons more efficiently or overload with plan to save unit via tornado.
3.  addition of sunken treasure to facilitate getting minions in hand.
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Re: Review my quickest deck

Valentino
Again a very nice review. You should work as analyst ;)

My opinion about things things which did not work:
1. Not sure why I did not feel the same problem that hard. Maybe the answer is because I like quick decks and you play a control deck strategy. Be aware that minions in this deck NEVER fight other minions. You place them in free paths and keep doing damages. When you have already placed a couple of razor damages you are already half of the way then you do the rest with aeromancer/tornados.

2. When I have so many energizes I spend them with Aquamancers for extra damages given that they cost just 1. They prevent minions to damage my minions (see 1.)

3. If you add more spells then you have 50% chance to draw energize. I would agree only if you add a spell which really makes a lot of sense in this deck

4. You place all tornados in play in case opponent has no quick creatures to keep aeromancer doing the job. They are anyway a good card also against the walls which aquamancers are not able to remove. However I admit that 4 is too much as I dont really need at the beginning of the game given that I am so aggressive.

My opinion about things which you want to try:
1. If you want to add minions then they must be very very aggressive (high strength)
2. I would be more keep about Tideshift. If opponent places a minion to block the razors then this is a nice surprise. (+5 damages!)
3. Not sure about this combo. You spend 2 pp to draw 3 cards (6 pp). I'd only add this in case you run out of cards or you are sure you can cast something in the same turn you use this. (a lot of 3 pp cards). Admit it might work.


By the way: the name of this deck is SHARKADO (Shark-Tornado)...found this name in a very bad horror movie.
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Re: Review my quickest deck

Valentino
and natually my comments about what worked:

1.  That was my primary goal especially for this deck which must run as quick as possible

2.  Agree. But the main big advantage is that energize makes aquamancer 1/2 at the first turn

3.  Be aware that aeromancer costs 3 and aquamancer costs 2. They can be cast at the same turn and I can think just about a card which can destroy both. I love this. It's like saying to the opponent: do you prefer to face an aeromancer or an aquamancer? Make your choice (it sounds like SAW the movie)

4.  Can you think about any more realistic damaging quick combo?
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Re: Review my quickest deck

Quintivarium
In reply to this post by Valentino
I am very possibly misplaying the deck by using Quintistrategy instead of Valestrategy.  Let me ask you about several hypothetical situations to see if your response would differ from mine.  (On those that do differ, can you state why?  It would help me better understand how the deck should play.)

It is first turn of the game.  You hold the following cards, and go second: sea dragon, tornado, lost at sea. shimmer pearl, storm core.

1.  What do you play in response to your opponent playing a sea snake if:
   A.  You draw a triton hunter?
         I play the sea dragon opposite the snake.
   B.  You draw an aeromancer?
         I play the sea dragon opposite the snake.
   C.  You draw a razor shark?
         I play the sea dragon opposite the snake.
   D.  You draw an aquamancer?
         I play the sea dragon opposite the snake.
   E.  You draw another storm core?
         I play the sea dragon opposite the snake.
   F.  You draw an energize?
         I play the sea dragon opposite the snake.
         I hold the energize as I expect the sea snake to kill itself.

2.  What would differ from the above 6 cases if your opponent played grizzlies instead of sea snakes?  I play the same (sea dragon opposite grizzlies) except in case D I also use the pearl and storm core to play to aquamancer in an open lane, and in case F I use the pearl and energize on the dragon to reduce grizzlies to health 1.

3.  What would differ from the above 6 cases if your opponent played a screaming skull?  I play as in situation 2, except:  In case C I play sharks opposite the skulls instead of the dragon (hoping if the skulls run, I will draw an energize next turn).  In case E, I tap my deck for a new card, then in absence of a better option I use the pearl and storm cores to plat the dragon opposite the skulls.  And in case F, the use of energize kills the skulls.

4.  What would differ from the above 6 cases if your opponent played howling banshees?  I ignore the banshees.  Cases A, D, and E, I play sea dragons in an open lane.  In case D, I use my power cards to also play aquamancer, In case F, I use pearls to also power energize on dragon, but would choose to kill banshees with the dragon over damaging my opponent.  In Case B, I play aeromancers on an open lane, use storm core to also play lost at sea.  Next turn, baring something better or an unexpected twist, I’ll use the storm core, sea dragon, and energize to destroy banshees.  In case C, I play razor sharks in an open lane, and use pearl to draw a new card.

5.  What would differ from the above 6 cases if your opponent played a giant volta?  For me, this one is a tough choice – I might play it differently in different moods.  I think I would probably play it exactly as in situation 4.  My sea dragons opposite the volta will not kill it in one turn, but I am willing to take the point of health damage and extra point of damage to destroy the voltas as they are really awkward for this deck.  I don’t think I can function long using only two lanes, and tornados are of limited effectiveness against a cost three card threatening multiple lanes.

6.  What would differ from the above 6 cases if your opponent played aquamancers?  I think this deck really needs to remove the aquamancers before they grow as out minions do not have health to endure many drains.  In cases B and F, we have the cards in hand to destroy the aquamancers, and I do so.  In other cases, I, in order, tap the deck, tap the deck a second time, and play pearl and storm core to power lost at sea.  At any point in this sequence, I am willing to change plan if I draw cards that will remove the aquamancer.  I do not play a minion as I would rather take one life damage than see the aquamancer gain a health.

7.  What would differ from the above 6 cases if your opponent played sirens?  Cases A,B, and D, I play my small minion opposite the sirens.  Case D, I use power cards to also play sea dragon in an open lane, cases A and B I also use pearl to power lost at sea.  Other cases, I play tornado in siren’s lane and lost at sea.

8.  What would differ from the above 6 cases if your opponent shows to be playing purple, plays two cost 0 traps, one firebird, and taps his deck for a new card?  I don’t know whether traps are cinderbox or unnatural gas.  Eventually I have no choice than to trigger them—the issue is how.  My preference, in order: aeromancers or hunters, dragons (with hope to recall via tornado before they die), aquamancers, and finally sharks.  Thus, in cases A and B, I sacrifice my small minion in the firebird’s lane (should the traps be unnatural gas, I prefer that position, otherwise it doesn’t matter).  In other cases I play sea dragon in an open lane and probably power a tornado behind it.  Depending on situation, I might use energize instead, or let the dragon go a round before playing the tornado.

9.  What would differ from the above 6 cases if your opponent shows to be playing purple, plays a kobo summoner and a kobo miner, drawing an unplayed item to his hand?  In PVP, I expect a kobo/blood orb deck.  In addition to blood orbs, I am leery of body swaps, and especially slavers (tornados somewhat neutralize body swap)  I am a little worried about floating dragons in empty lanes until I better see the nature of my opponent’s hand – unless, of course, I can get damage from it (via energize).  But against blood orbs, I don’t want to be slow either.  And I don’t want the kobo summoner jamming all the lanes.  I guess I play either dragons or razor sharks opposite the summoner in all cases.  If I can energize the dragon to destroy the summoner, I do.  If I can bring out an aquamancer, I do so opposite the miner.

10.  What do you do if your opponent ends his turn playing nothing?  I assume the opponent is probably loaded with big minions or spells or both, so I want to use lost at sea provided I can productively use my remaining power points.  I also want to be getting my own attack underway as quickly as possible before my opponent plugs all four lanes with big minions I can’t block.  I’d rather risk dragons and sharks being meteored than let my opponent gain tempo.  Cases A, B, C, and D I play the smaller minion and use power generators to also play lost at sea.  Case E, I play dragon and use 3 power generators for lost at sea.  Case 5 I play dragon and power energize.
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Re: Review my quickest deck

Valentino
Did you figure out that the questions you wrote take a whole afternoon to be discussed properly?

let me introduce quickly 2 possible strategies:

1) Quick decks - I bet I can do more damages than you in a given amount of rounds
2) Control decks - I bet my cretures are stronger than yours and I can block your attack before you kill me.

This deck is meant to be used as Quick deck with few exceptions:
a) Sea dragon - in case a strong minion is put in place and my attack is not quicker than opponent's attack
b) Triton aquamancer - to destroy strong minions but with limited health
These exceptions should be used only as alternative to the quick strategy!

Now I answer your questions:

1. I do your same move
2. same moves as 1.
3. I do the possible to put in game minions as quick as I can. I choose strongest minions first. They can be put in front of the skull if they are stronger.
4. I ignore the banshee. In no case I put any creature in front of the banshee.
5. I ignore the giant volta and play minions in paths where they cannot be killed
6. agree
7. I place aquamancer in front of siren ideally. As alternative the creature with the lowest strength
8. In no case I risk to loose the minion. I ignore the firebird and keep trying damaging opponent by taking the damage of firebird
9. I place aquamancer opposed to miner and kill the summoner if I can.
10. I play the least damaging minions I have first

Please be aware that what you describe is your worst case scenario: no energize in hand, you start second.

my first move is aeromancer first anyway if I can start.
then I play the combo I have in hands with a preference for the most damaging quick move if I have energize + razor. The excess of power is always used to draw an extra card.







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Re: Review my quickest deck

Quintivarium
"Did you figure out that the questions you wrote take a whole afternoon to be discussed properly?"
Probably -- it took a whole morning to formulate them :)


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Re: Review my quickest deck

Quintivarium
In reply to this post by Valentino
I chose the scenario I did, not to focus on worst case, but to focus on defensive strategies (which you might consider worst case) because I expected that would be the place where I deviated from you most.  After seeing your answers, I don't think our general approach differs that much.  You are a bit more protective of minions you do have than I am -- that might explain part of my sense of shortage of minions.  And you are somewhat less inclined to view a situation (e.g. giant volta) as needing defensive measures.  Neither of these is a surprise.

Re 5: By ignoring the volta, you could be restricted to maneuvering in 2 lanes while your opponent has free run in three.  Is this not problematic?

Re 8: What about the traps?  Two cinderboxes will kill any minion except sea dragon.  Two unnatural gas will diminish any of your minions to either weak or virtually worthless.  You almost have to sacrifice something.  My question is what would you sacrifice?

Re 10: Here we differ.  Why do you start with the weakest minions?  I go for the strong ones to keep a control deck from gaining tempo (say by playing a ruby dragon or deepsea thing opposite my weaker minion).
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Re: Review my quickest deck

Valentino
My point of view is that decks such as this one, and most of my decks, are more aggressive than the one of the opponent. Frankly I found very rarely the need to be on defensive. In the worst case I found a stalling deck which is something annoying. If I find an aggressive deck then I was not aggressive enough.
If opponent causes me 2 damages and I can cause 3 damages I prefer to keep this situation instead of blocking the creature causing 2 damages. This is the essence of being quick instead of controlling the game.

Re 5: Volta causes 2 damages and it can be eliminated in 3 turns by an aquamancer. I am not scared of 2 strength creatures in this deck as the biggest creatures cause 5 or 4 damages since the turn in which they are played.

Re 8:
Unnatural gas -> aquamancer: I don't use aquamancer because is strong
2 Cinder box -> sea dragon, triton or aeromancer

Re 10: weakest minions (triton, aquamancer and aeromancer) are targeted first and are ancillary for this deck. The real hammers are razor and dragon. Please note that triton, aeromancer and dragon even if are destroyed had an effect anyway.
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Re: Review my quickest deck

Valentino
BTW: this thread is turning to an unexpected very interesting discussion!
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Re: Review my quickest deck

Valentino
what if we try it in PVP? That would be a quicker answer to your questions ;-)