first, this is not a gripe but you guys have always said you're not in this for the money. as more and more factions come out one always has to decide how to spend "his" gold. do i buy a pack of 40 and give that faction try or do i buy 1 (one!) rare card? with this in mind i propose you lower the price of the rare cards. first, there are 12 (usually) in each deck and they cost fivefold what an Uncommon costs yet, in my opinion, what they bring to the table doesn't warrant that cost disparity.
examples (and there are quite a few more):
Cinderlings - Fire Minion - when it's killed its strength is distributed randomly to your forces. fine if its strength was 6 but it's a measly 2! i get 1 strength per card, not worth 200 gold.
Life Force - Forest Spell - all forces get 1 life. why not 1 force gets 4 life?! 1 life = 1 turn /= 200 gold.
10 for common, 40 for uncommon, then jumping to 200 for rare is unbalanced. i propose 100 for rare (let's hear a GO TEAM people!). at 7 gold per win you have to play 29 games just to buy 1 rare (or pay $$, is that what you want?). either consider dropping the price to 100 or maybe do like Summoner Wars and include an IAP that let's you buy all the cards for a certain faction for one (reasonable) price.
and, i'll throw a question since i've never understood this. i don't use barriers that much but all i thought they were was a punching bag. stick a 0/6 barrier in front of a strong minion until you get one of your own to counter attack. an example is Swamp Rare, Necropolis (200 gold!). it's a barrier but has 2/2 and gains strength as your forces die. strength? do barrier's also attack?
thanks guys, would appreciate any feedback.
We'd like to make money from it sure :)
But the primary motivation we have is to make a great game that people enjoy and if that can make money then all the better, but if it doesn't then that's fine too because we greatly enjoy the process. But note that it costs us money making the game and running it, so if it even paid for itself that would help!
As for the Rare pricing, that reflects their special advantages. If you don't think they are worth it, that's fine just don't use them? :)
Another point to consider here is that if you obtain all of the cards quickly, the earlier levels will be less challenging for you. So making the Rares more available by reducing their price might actually reduce your enjoyment of the game (who wants to win all the time?).
We almost had a single up front cost for the game but the problem there is that it is a large barrier to entry for people and we felt that fewer people would get to play the game - which then reduces enjoyment for all players too.
Weighing up where to spend your gold is also a key strategic decision - if that was obvious too, again where is the fun in that :)
Some people say the game is too easy and too much gold, others say it's too hard and not enough gold. I think on balance we've done a great job at hitting a sweet middle spot - the fact that it's a difficult choice for you where to spend that gold, rather than an obvious choice, tells me that actually we have the price exactly where it should be :)
Thanks for the thoughts Mack - enter the Tournament - you never know your luck!
first things first:
ok, so much for my whining but can you address that Barrier question i had at the end?
Barriers don't Attack no, but they do defend nicely :)
So having strength on a Barrier is always good.
Some Barriers have other abilities too, and they can be really useful.
A hefty barrier can effectively close down a lane to the enemy, leaving you one less to worry about - also, maybe you can feed in enemy cards to that strong barrier for destruction when they attack it.
Maybe post it as a separate question so others see it and can chip in, I'm not the strongest player here by a longggg margin
thanks mike, i'll post a new topic because i'm still confused because "defend nicely" is a function of Health points, not Strength. if they don't attack why do they have Strength?
If a big wall has 3 strength , it can fend off a strength 3 attacker forever. So in that sense, a strength is a factor. But yes, they often just have large amounts of health.
Essentially barriers are much cheaper than an equivalent minion as they can't attack. And, as Mike said, some don't even need to attack to be a pain, as they have their own special abilities.
A future faction, Mountain, will bring heavy focus on barriers. Lost of massive walls in there.
Regarding pricing: we are happy with the prices as they are. None of the rares are necessary, but I would definitely grab a few just for variety. We have made and have seen very effective decks using Commons and Uncommons only. After all, a big rare Dragon or a small weedy Kobo both get Lost just the same...
For those that wish to support us, then every little purchase helps : currently it all goes right back into advertising to get us and you more opponents.
Steve @ ThreeGoblins
makes sense now, thanks steve!
and, i have and do invest in purchasing gold. i just thought the disparity of purchasing 50 Air cards or 2 Rare cards for roughly the same gold seemed worth asking about.
This post was updated on .
One way that I see it is that each deck really costs 146 gold.
I hear you say why?
Purchase price = 350 gold
Resell value = Rare (4*30) + Uncommon (12*5) + Common (24*1) = 204 gold
Actual price = 146
Now augment that by, say, one rare that you wish to keep (30 less revenue), the rare cost you 176.
Two rare you want to keep? 206/2 = 103 per rare
Three = 78.666666667 gold per rare and Four = 66.5 gold per rare, 66.5% of your suggested retail price of 100 gold.
That is, if you are just looking for rare cards.
These economics work for players early in the game, as the chances to get rare cards that you want to keep diminish as you build your collection and there is a tipping point where chance will fail you more often than not, i.e. you have little chances to find the Hippie Dragon, which you were looking for. Then, if you buy boosters, you are pretty much throwing away 146 gold and spending lots of time selling cards.
Those are my economics, hope it helps!
Edit: Typo, clarification. And also: 350-204=146, not 144 as suggested before the edit. Got confused, right there.
This post was updated on .
factions are 40 unique cards, comprised of 12 unique rares, 12 unique uncommons, and 16 unique commons and you can have up to 4 of each unique card so a single deck for one faction could contain 160 cards.
the "Purchase price" you mention of 350 is not correct. you can buy 40 cards for 350 but you'll certainly only get 1 or (maybe) 2 rares and smattering of the others, many duplicated (2 of each card). for 350 you won't have a full compliment of all the cards, in a lot of cases, far from it.
just for laughs -
a deck with a one of every card would cost you 3040 gold, a full 160 cards, 4 of each, would cost (hang on to your hat!) 12,160 gold.
@ Steve Goblin -
if i recall correctly, the AI is supposed to only play with 40 unique cards (like us) meaning it can only play 2 factions with one faction limited to max 16 cards BUT it can and does play with more than 4 of one kind of card. is this correct? does the AI have more than 4 of one kind of rare? does it have all the rares for each of the 2 factions to choose from? is this why it often times beats the snot out of me?
This post was updated on .
I wil try and clear up a few point of confusion.
A deck can only have 40 cards in it of course. 160 would be the size of a full collection of a faction, which would be impressive for sure, but not necessary.
Card Gold Costs
Determining gold costs for cards was tricky. I did a lot of analysis on this and it's balanced for both short- and long-term players. Long-term players have a lot of gold stockpiled from just winning matches.
It is, by the way, a fraction of the cost of other electronic CCGs, which was an aim. That sounds like a cheap shot at self-promotion, but it just happens to be a fact.
Rares Per Pack
The number of rares/uncommons/commons in a pack is fixed and will never vary.
AI Deck Construction
They follow these two rules:
(i) Exactly 40 cards
(ii) One major and one minor faction (as for players) – there used to be some experimental triple colours but I took them out. They might well return in future.
So, they can use any proportion of rares/uncommons/commons. Bear in mind that 'Rare' doesn't mean better or stronger in all situations...
So yes, they can have 25 Kobos and 15 Shadow Dragons. Why? Because it's fun, and at the end of the day, the human player will eventually learn to outperform the AI. We set out from the beginning to make this challenging at higher levels. Other CCGs I have tried, so far, are a walkover.
Steve @ ThreeGoblins
i thought this but thanks for clarifying. in one of my games the AI "seemed" to play the same card more than 4 times and now i know why. the AI is tricky sometimes and quite challenging and i certainly don't beat it all the time. but, as long as i don't come up against a 25 Kobo and 15 Shadow Dragon deck i should be fine.
In reply to this post by .Confused.
I've been looking at how I should spend my goblin gold and thought I
would share it with everyone else.
Here's the question: You just bought some Gold (rewarding the Goblins
for their excellent game) and there are several rares you'd really
like to own (you've read Quintivarium's "rare card guide"). What's
the best way to get them? Should you buy them directly one at a time
at 200 gold for each? Or should you gamble and buy a deck, hoping to
get that rare you really need to make your perfect deck?
I wrote a small program to simulate how many decks you'd have to buy
before you got that single rare card you want.
Assumptions: You buy a deck that randomly chooses 4 out of 12 rares,
12 of 12 Uncommons, and 24 of 16 Commons. All card draws are
independent (you can draw multiple cards that are the same; in this
case you can draw 4 rares that are identical). I ran 10000 runs, each
one stopping when the desired card was drawn and recording the number
of draws it took.
If you want 1 specific rare card (.Confused.'s Hippie Dragon), here's
Number Decks: Cumulative Probability
So if you buy 1 deck, there is a 29% chance you will get your rare
card. If you buy 2, there is now a 50% chance. By 4 decks, there is
a 75% chance you will get your rare card.
Warning: This is chance and there are no guarantees! So you may keep
buying decks and never get your Hippie Dragon.
OK, let's say there are two different rare cards that you'd be happy
to own (the Hippie Dragon or the CrystalMancer). You don't need both
of them, but either one of them would make you very happy.
Here's the table for when you'd get at least one of those two rare
Number Decks: Cumulative Probability
So if you buy 1 deck there is a 52% chance you will get at least one
of your two rare cards. If you buy 4 rare decks, there is a 94%
And one more table in case there are three different rare cards that
you'd be happy to own. You don't need all of them, but any of them
would be great for your killer deck:
Number Decks: Cumulative Probability
So once you have three cards you'd be happy with, there is a 69%
chance you'll get one of them in your first deck and a near certain
chance you'll get it by four decks.
OK, one more: Let's say you don't want only one copy of that rare
Hippie Dragon, but you want four copies of it. How long will it take
you if you only buy decks?
There are two ways of looking at it: The probability that you will get
all four by a certain deck and the number of Hippie Dragon cards you
expect to have by each round:
Number Decks: Cumulative Probability Number HippieDragons drawn so far
1: <never happened in 10000 runs> .3
2: .2% .6
3: 1.2% .9
7: 20% 2.3
8: 28% 2.6
11: 50% 3.6
12: 57% 3.9
15: 75% 4.9
20: 91% 6.6
The way to think about this table is that if you are a totally average
deck drawer, you will draw your needed rare card every 3ish draws. By
draw 12, you should have all 4 of your Hippie Dragon cards. If you're
an incredibly lucky drawer, you could get all 4 of them by draw 3
(1.2% chance) or draw 7 (20% chance). If you're an incredibly unlucky
drawer, you'll finally get them all by draw 15 or 20.
So here's the way I interpret these numbers: If you're feeling lucky
and the rare card is in a faction where you want 1 or 2 other rare
cards, buy 3 or 4 of the decks. That should give you 2-4 of the 2
cards you're looking for. Then buy the remainder with individual
I would add the benefit of getting or selling all the cards you get, while you're looking for a specific rare card. This would allow us to "price" your stats.
...So this costs, for a 2 or 3 cards option, 3 or 4 packs, approximatively.
350 * 3 =1050 gold, 350 * 4 = 1400 gold; if you keep all cards. A player starting their collection will most certainly benefit from this investment. Plus, if you buy it with real cash, it's approximatively 5$ CAD, not even enough to wet the lips of a Goblin on half a pint of decent beer. That's as cheap as it gets.
If you keep only the one rare you find (65% chances) after 3 packs, your rare cost you 30 gold (see the calculations above). Every pack where you encounter nothing you desire costs you 146 gold. Factoring in 35% of this cost is 51 gold, for the loss probability (not getting the Relic Opener that you were looking for). So, really, if you hunt for an option of 2 specific rare cards, purchasing 3 packs, it costs you (3 * (146 + 51)) + 30 = 621 gold. This formula is malleable and can be adapted to 29% chances to get one specific rare, in one pack: (171% * 146) + 30 = 280. Hope I'm right though, it's getting late...
From this calculation, I'd argue you're really better off to purchase a rare card for 200 gold if that's the one you want. From all my player-fibers though, I'd say: get to bed with Mother-Luck and build that card collection. The rare you want will not taste as sweet as you thought, until you can match it with the proper deck composition. And before that, you'll have seen 20 other rare cards you *must have*. Overwhelmed by experience, you'll be catching "Mark-icism" and will be building decks out of commons only...
Anyhow... Thanks Cog.Bot, great work!
Actually, there are more statistics that can be useful: I agree with Confused that it is generally better to buy booster packs than individual cards because even if they lack the specific desired card, they probably have other useful cards well worth the price. Certainly boosters are the cheapest way to build your card holdings. The exception is when you really need certain cards now to complete a deck, or when you have already acquired an almost complete holding in a particular faction. In these cases, it is perfectly legitimate to ask, “When do I switch from buying boosters to finishing my collection by purchasing individual cards?”
Contrary to rumors, I only write simulations as a last resort; I prefer to use mathematical models to either exactly compute solutions or to derive reasonable approximations. This is a relatively simple question; I can compute exact values. As Confused has pointed out, the actual cost of buying a booster pack then selling back all cards is 146 gold, the cost of buying a booster, then keeping only one rare card is 176 gold. As Cog.Bot simulated, the probability of drawing at least one copy of a rare card is 29% (actually closer to 29.3933 %, but there's no need for this precision). So let me compute the expected return if I value a rare card at 200 gold, but choose to buy boosters instead. If I need only one rare card, the calculation is straight forward:
prob getting card * net gain if card drawn + prob not getting card * net loss if card not drawn
= .29*(200-176) + .71 (-146) = -96.7 So, on the average, I lose about 97 gold per booster purchased.
If I need 2 copies of the same rare card, this calculation becomes
porb 2 or more * gain 2 or more + prob 1 * gain 1 + prob 0 * gain 0
=.037*(400 - 206) + .257*(200-176) + .706*(-146) = -90.3. Again a big loss.
Even if I need 4 copies of the same card, my expected loss is still 89.9 gold. So I should never purchase boosters if I want only a specific rare card. On the average, it is far cheaper to just buy the card.
Now let’s suppose I want one copy of exactly two different rare cards, I am looking at an expected gain of
prob both * gain both + prob 1 * gain 1 + prob 0 * gain 0
= -47.03 gold, still a big loss (I’ll spare the details)
I did not compute cases where I might want more than one copies of one or both card as I did not expect a significant improvement on this loss.
It is only when I want copies of at least 3 different rare cards that buying boosters becomes cost effective: if I want only one copy of each, I have an expected gain from the booster purchase of a rather paltry 3.92 gold. I suppose this is worthwhile if you are not risk averse, but it’s not odds to get excited over.
I guess the key point here is that the break-even point on buying boosters rather than individual cards is when you need one copy of three different cards; when two or fewer different cards are desired, it is better to purchase them outright.
This leads to a new question. How much, on the average does it cost to acquire a complete holding for one faction? Say, for instance, I want to save gold to buy a complete set of 4 copies of all the upcoming ice faction cards, how much gold should I save? Unfortunately, the probability calculations here do not appear feasible; a simulation is going to be required. From my previous calculations, I know to buy boosters until I have 2 or fewer distinct rare cards needed, at which point I buy them outright. It is reasonable to assume that by this time, I will have acquired all common and uncommon cards. I have a roughly 30 line C++ program drafted to do this. If I can get to a computer with a C++ compiler (and have time to check a couple of syntax issues) within the next few days, I’ll share those results – unless, of course, someone who likes to write simulations beats me to it .
Just to say, where is Valentino when you need him? :)
In reply to this post by Quintivarium
So now that the Ice faction is going to come out, I did some of the
simulations to answer this question. We know that buying complete
decks is the most efficient use of gold in general, so here's the way
I structured the question:
When should I stop buying complete decks?
There are many ways you could imagine to stop buying complete decks
and then switch to buying individual cards, but I'm going to only look
at two of them (other ideas are welcome as well):
1) You could buy decks until you have at least N copies of each card
(e.g., 3 copies of each of the rare cards), then buy the remainder as
2) You could buy decks until you only need N more cards.
I wrote a small program (in R, for those who are interested) to
simulate both these scenarios.
Assumptions: You buy a deck for 350 gold that randomly chooses 4 out
of 12 rares, 12 of 12 Uncommons, and 24 of 16 Commons. All card draws
are independent (you can draw multiple cards that are the same; in
this case you can draw 12 commons that are identical). If you have more
than 4 copies of a card, you can sell it back at the appropriate price
(30 for rares, 5 for uncommons, 1 for commons). You can buy cards you
need at the appropriate price (200 for rares, 40 for uncommons, 10 for
I ran 1000 simulations of each stopping strategy; the information is
(I used medians for all reported results here.)
Strategy: Keep buying decks until you have at least N of very card
N = 4: It costs about 5102 gold (23 decks / 0 individual cards)
N = 3: It costs about 4784 gold (19 decks / 2 individual cards)
N = 2; It costs about 4906 gold (14 decks / 5 individual cards)
N = 1: It costs about 5778 gold (9 decks / 16 individual cards)
N = 0; It costs 12160 if you buy the cards individually
The way to read this is that if you are going to buy decks until you
have every single card (shown on the top line and a bad idea), it's
going to cost you about 5100 gold and it will take you about 23 decks.
But using that strategy to buy cards until you have at least 3 copies
is a reasonable strategy; this will take you about 19 decks and you'll
have to buy 2 individual cards and your total cost will be about 4800
goblin gold (decks + individual cards).
Strategy: Keep buying decks until you only need N more cards
N = 10: It costs about 5050 gold (12 decks / 10 individual cards)
N = 9: It costs about 5002 gold (12 decks / 9 individual cards)
N = 8: It costs about 4856 gold (13 decks / 8 individual cards)
N = 7: It costs about 4832 gold (13 decks / 7 individual cards)
N = 6: It costs about 4784 gold (14 decks / 6 individual cards)
N = 5: It costs about 4638 gold (15 decks / 5 individual cards)
N = 4: It costs about 4614 gold (16 decks / 4 individual cards) **
N = 3: It costs about 4688 gold (17 decks / 3 individual cards)
N = 2: It costs about 4712 gold (18 decks / 2 individual cards)
N = 1: It costs about 4834 gold (20 decks / 1 individual cards)
N = 0: It costs about 5102 gold (23 decks / 0 individual cards)
The way to read this is that if you are going to buy decks until you
only need 10 cards (the top line), you will buy about 12 decks, 10
individual cards, and it will cost you about 5050 gold.
This ends up being a good strategy (the best I've found) if you buy
complete decks until you have all but 4 copies total (it will take
about 16 decks) and then buy those 4 copies outright. Using this
strategy will cost you about 4614 gold.
To make this more explicit, let's assume you've saved up about 5000
goblin gold and you keep buying complete decks until you only need 4
copies. This ends up taking 17 decks for you and you are missing 1
copy of the Rare Ice Aura, 1 copy of the Rare Frost Giant, and 2
copies of the Rare Enchanted Unicorn. You have 4 copies of every
other card, so you buy the 4 copies you need and you have a full Ice
Faction! Your total cost ended up being 4940 gold (because you were
selling cards back as you got more than 4 copies of each card), so
your 5000 gold was just enough.
A big caveat is the role of chance in the game itself. It should take
you about 16 decks to get all but 4 card copies, but over 1000
simulation runs, that number ranged from 12 to 26 decks (though the
majority were clearly within 15-17). Using that strategy cost on
average 4600 goblin gold, but it ranged from 3836 to 6220 goblin gold.
Another caveat is that I could have made a mistake. I tested
different scenarios, and unless I or someone else finds an error, I'm
planning on getting to 5000-6000 gold and using this strategy of
buying complete decks until I need 4 cards and then buying those cards
For players that don't have a ton of gold but wanted to buy a complete
faction with real money (and you should support the goblins for their
great game!), it would be nice if the goblins added a "Buy a complete
faction for X Dollars." I don't know what X would be, but I suspect
it would be something like $12 to $14 (US) since 3000 gold is $9.99
and 8000 gold is $19.99.
For the veteran players, if the goblins were to add on a "Buy a
complete faction for 4500 gold" I'd do that immediately to save time,
effort, and the chance I'd get unlucky. Even 5000 gold would probably
be a good deal for most people in terms of saving time.
Thanks Cog.Bot., I've always used my guts on technique #2, now you gave us hard evidence!
Harder evidence yet: the process itself of purchasing the whole collection again.
Always turn your icloud device on for Spellcraft data. So... I deleted inadvertedly my SC collection. Ouch! Apart from the time spend selling common/uncommon cards (2 hours?), it was a good proof to test Cog.Bot's calculations. Always turn on your icloud device on for Spellcraft i say!
So it cost me 31,784 Goblin gold to rebuilt 7 factions to 4 of each card. I purchased 14 "40 cards boosters" in average (as suggested above) and bought the 3 to 6 remaining rares of the faction at 200 Gg. That is not counting the 8,400 Gg I'll need to spend on unlockables, once unlocked.
So, a faction costs about 4,541 Gg plus 1,200 Gg for unlockables = 5,741 per faction.
Guess I got luckier than Cog.Bot's spreadsheet, ha! ;)
So, the game is worth approx 80$ in the canadian store: 40$ for 20,000 Gg in-app purchase; 40,184 Gg cost for the whole seven factions, unlockables included.
I hope you never have to verify these numbers for yourself, as it costs in time much more than in Gg!!!
In reply to this post by Mack the Knife
The thing about the rares that u seem to be missing Mack is the fact that even though buying rares individually is really expensive, if your point on the matter is trying to get newer rares than dont buy them individually. Instead jus try your luck on buying boosters. Even jus a 10 card booster only costs 100 gold (which is half the cost of jus one individual rare!) and it promises 6 commoms, 4 uncommons, and 1 RARE! In other words u would be getting more bang for your buck if u jus buy boosters. And about your comment on getting the same kind of rare, i jus wanna ask why is that such a bad thing? I understand your eagerness to get newer cards, especially rares, but if u have multiple copies of the same rare, then build a deck based around that rare and put ALL OF THEM into that deck :) But anyways I hope u dont think im being rude with this comment, im actually making this reply to potentially help u spend your gold more wisely and help u get exactly what u are looking for. But in the end the gold u have is yours to spend whichever way u like :)
In reply to this post by Mack the Knife
I am a relatively new player, and I can attest to the fact that it is hard to build a worthwhile deck without paying actual money, early on. I'm sure a lot of hardened vets simply see through rose tinted glasses about this particular "problem". That being said, I did spend some actual money to get some cards because I was playing this game a bunch and felt the Goblins deserved some compensation.
I think a possible answer to the "expensive rare" problem that won't break the game is to have them start low, say 50 gold and increase in price by 10 gold until they cap at the 200 mark. This allows beginner players to acquire some rares, but eventually puts everyone at the same price scale. Mind you these are just numbers I threw out, and it is just an idea.
I like the game so far! Thanks!
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