Just wanted to share the list of a Tritons deck and see what you think about it:
[ Ocean ]
4x Ancient Turtle (a way to get early Triton Rituals)
1x Sea Dragon (get back Reemergence from the discard pile)
4x Triton Assassin
4x Triton Warmachine (the only way to deal with barriers)
4x Triton Aquamancers
4x Triton Hunters (get back Lost at Sea from the discard pile)
3x Triton Pearldivers (get back Sunken Treasure from the discard pile)
4x Triton Ritual
3x Sunken Treasure
4x Lost at Sea
[ Forest ]
4x Faerie Enchantress (another way to get early Triton Rituals)
1x Reemergence (prevents running out of cards)
I have tested this deck a little bit vs. the AI with good results, but from simply contemplating the deck, I find it lacking. What bothers me most is the lack of a clear "win strategy". What I mean is a sense of how it will achieve victory against a generic but well played deck.
Clearly, with only 1 strength 4 minion and 4 more strength 3 minions, your deck is not going to out-muscle most opponents. With no direct damage/removal type spells, its means of handling troublesome enemies are limited to gradual damage by aquamancers and/or strength reduction by assassins -- I don't think this will keep up with an opponent's ability to mount threats. Lost at sea can certainly inhibit an opponent's ability to deploy units, but there are no units in your deck that really exploit this, and most will struggle against enemy units once they are deployed. The deck does not really work as a blitz deck -- there are no quick units, the cost of playing triton ritual is great enough that you won't be able to deploy cheap hordes of tritons before the opponent has time to occupy most of the lanes of the board, and the damage potential per turn of your units is really too low. And finally, while you will eventually be swimming in power points, you won't have good uses for them -- simply playing more cards won't significantly enhance your position once all lanes are filled.
If you could add a couple of fire prism so triggering triton ritual not only generated power, but also inflicted damage on enemy units -- or if you could use the power on spells like meteor to actually destroy an enemy, I would find triton ritual useful. But in the actual deck, it is almost a wasted card.
One nit-picky thing. 1 ocean dragon is not a good match for resurgence. I find myself almost always wanting the dragon as soon as it is drawn; normally I have no desire for reemergence until late in the game. Unless I intentionally restrain myself, I will play the dragon before the resurgence about 80% to 90% of the time -- defeating the purpose of using the dragon.
I think as you play it, you will find your existing fire/ocean deck to be far stronger.
As usual, a very good analysis of the deck. Thank you! The lack of "winning conditions" in the deck was immediately clear to me as well. I simply overlooked it, hoping that Aquamancer and Assasins would simply "open" the lanes for something else to hit the enemy. Fair enough, I'll concentrate on some other deck then.
You're right about aquamancer and assassins being dangerous, but assassins only open lanes for themselves. Aquamancers might suffice if either your opponent runs low health minions or you can get at least two established. But that's putting at least most eggs in one basket. It will work va AI but probably not PVP.
In reply to this post by MadAdaM
You are close. Go take a long look at fire prism 😉
I've tried the combo you propose. First it is expensive for a player without a lot of resources -- it needs 4 fire prisms if at all possible.
Moreover, as the deck cannot summon fire prism (which requires kobo miners), and it can only summon triton ritual via the expensive but otherwise ineffective ancient turtle. it is not consistent. The need for both prisms and rituals makes the deck dependent on a good draw -- although sunken treasure and fluidity might improve this a bit.
By the way, certain air cards (energize and overworld elixir) also accelerate aquamancers and assassins to the point where triton decks are competitive, although I wold forgo some of the tritons for voltas and sea dragons. I did not mention these modifications because I felt they digressed to far from the original concept as they don't even use the same factions.
Well I make it work.
I have yet to see a deck work on good minions attacking down lanes. You have to be shooting for global table control. That is why burning lands is so effective.
Get lose the assassins and put in a couple illusionists. Assassins are too expensive and are not even good at controlling their own lane. Get the illusionist Not because they are good but because they cost two. Moving a turtle in front of a dragon can be good to but 2 cost is what you want.
With pyromancers pearl divers chests and both the 0 cost and 3 for 2 cost power items you have lots of ways to get and keep you prisms and do damage wth them while gaining an even better board.
Next. You absolutely do not need 4 prisms. One example. Picture 2 prisms and 3 rituals. Let's say you get the triton that plays for 3 and goes back in your hand for 1. I will let you do the math on how manny dragons that kills. Now throw in pyromancers, shoot even playing an illusionist will allow you to replay the (I forget his name) for another 6 points of non resistible damage.
That is only one example.
Wave rider. Had to look it up. I have bounced him 6 times in a turn before.
Milo, would you consider posting your decklist?
4 x Waveriders
4 x Fire Prisms
4 x Rituals
4 x Sunken Treasures
4 x Ancient Turtles
4 x Warmachines
4 x Aquamancers
2 x Pearl Divers
2 x Rainbow Pearls
2 x Shimmerpearls
4 x Pyromancers
2 x Illusionist
So the top group is your holy 3
If you ever end up with 4 rits and 1 prism you can play, pull and replay the waveriders infinitely until the board is clear and then evaluate what you will play with your remaining 5 power. That's what I mean by controlling the table. And ideally you want more rits than prisms. You do not need 4 prisms in play. Yes its a magic combo so be prepared not to get it.
That's why you have Ancient Turtles and Sunken Treasures. Do not be afraid to open 2 treasures in on turn 2 and discard what you think you wont need. The object is to get board control ASAP. If you draw a Turtle, consider holding it a turn and wait for them to play a dragon (or any other heavy hitter). 9 points is a lot for most big cards to plow through.
Warmachines and Aquamancers are both just good cards. They complement the trinity by being hard to kill and ... well... aquamancers rock. I really don't care about barriers with this deck. If their deck is slow enough that they have barriers, you will punish them for it mid game.
Pearl divers... The divers I put in because I was afraid I might get my prisms burned. But they serve a ton of good purpose to this deck. For example... Maybe I have a decent game going and pull a diver but have no use for it. If there are 2 rits out then I will burn him like a pearl: play a warmachine for 4, gain 2 back up to three, play a diver for 1, gain 2 back up to 4, play a second warmachine. He didn't just pull me up another chest, he put a second warmachine in play. Now if one Prism was out... tally up the random damage. ... you don't need 4 prisms out ;-)
Pyros and Pearls... They just make good sense. Pyros are 2/2. you will most likely get at least one use out of them. Play them opposite another 2 strength minion. ALLWAYS spend extra power to pull cards. OK... I didn't realize this for months. You can double tap your deck to pull a card for 2 power. It seems to be in a tricky spot and there is a delay but this does work and is something you must do.
Illusionists are not very good cards but frankly... they cost two and have 2 strength. 2 str is a magic number that can stall a lane. They occasionally pull a turtle in front of a dragon (good stuff).
This is not an easy deck to play... The fun of this deck is that:
- Its not a burning lands deck
- You have to think... a lot. You will often find yourself trying to figure out how to juggle the 10 cards in your hand and 4 in play into a turn that wipes out 4 pyrohydras and a ruby. This deck can win against burning lands and denial decks but you have to recognize them and account for them. Play a rit and keep that turtle in your hand when playing an Ocean as they can take out many auras at a time. Start thinking about how you will control the table with warmachines and aquamancers when playing against someone who just destroyed your prism. Don't random damage a pyrohydra; drop a turtle in front of it and slowly get all your other pieces in play before you kill it and everything else in one turn.
Anyhow... I have really been enjoying this deck; give it a try.
In reply to this post by MadAdaM
Hopefully Milo will share his deck as, from his enthusiasm, it must be better than mine. But here is my deck. It can be quite impressive -- untli you get a streak of bad luck and fail to draw a fire prism or a triton ritual until too late. I am not happy with its inconsistency.
4 triton assassins
4 triton war machines
4 triton waveriders
4 triton aquamancers
4 triton hunters
4 triton pearldivers
4 triton ritual
3 sunken treasure
3 shimmer pearls
4 fire prism
Because I do not consistently get enough prisms and rituals quickly enough, it may be worthwhile to drop sink in favor of fluidity, and to swap some assasins and war machines for turtles. It is also hard to play a prism (it pretty much burns a full turn), so it might be nice to have pyromancers and captured flames to allow additional plays. But every triton replaced is one less to play once my control is established.
Triton illusionists might be a good substitute for war machines or assassins (cost 2 is nice), but it worries me -- until I draw my prism, my only effective defence is the war machine and the assassin.
Excellent. You posted your deck while I was typing. I'll have to try it. (I do notice you use 4 prisms. Even though you don't need many in play, I think you do need them in your deck to improve chances of drawing them. With only 2, on the average, you will draw the first around the twelvth card drawn -- which I think is too late.)
Q I thought you meant I needed four out at a time. Yes you need four in the deck and that isn't cheap to get. Wave riders are common. Nothing like winning with a conmon😉
In reply to this post by Quintivarium
ok so... I don't like assassins. If they did their -1-1 on entering a lane that would be great but they just feel a little weak to me. Maybe I don't know how to play them right... If they get to a lane first then I can see how an opponent might just let you have that lane. But he only does 2 damage... And the hard part about playing a fire prism is the fact you will burn a turn on it, meaning you will give up board advantage to play it. This puts assassins coming out opposite a ready minion. Knowing when to play the prism is huge. I just lost to a guy because I played it too early and he capitalized on it.
There are no traps in your deck so hunters shouldn't be either. Every cards should synergize in multiple ways.
Sink isn't that good of a card either. If you did damage every time you drew a card it would be great but there are better ways to block, stall and draw.
If you try my list out, you should try your assassins and let me know how they do. Swap them in for pyros, divers or pearls. Shoot, they may be a cool alternative to aquamancers. I only have 1 so I'd love to hear feedback from someone with experience using them, as opposed to going on my blind assumptions on how they work ;-)
I've now had a limited chance to play your deck -- although not a whole lot, and I wanted to respond to your comments.
Your discussion on particular triton minions (assassins, hunters, illusionists, and pearl divers) is very interesting, and I want to contribute my thoughts. But first, with this fire prism deck, I think particular minions are a secondary issue. The most critical element to this deck is establishing a fire prism, triton ritual combo. If this occurs, it really doesn't much matter which tritons are played -- all enemies are immediately wiped off the board. What really matters is how easy it is to draw the necessary rituals and prisms and how well one survives while the combo is unavailable or only partially established.
Thus the biggest difference between our decks is your choice to take fewer tritons in favor of including ancient turtles and pyromancers. I think your path is the wiser one. My deck fails for three reasons: I do not draw triton rituals soon enough, I do not draw (or am unable to play) fire prism soon enough, or my opponent significantly delays full implementation of the prism/ritual combo by destroying prisms or rituals. The ancient turtles significantly reduce the chance of not drawing rituals -- and because rituals cost 3 power to play, the 5 cost of the giant turtle is sufficiently offset to avoid significantly delaying other plays I might make. The pyromancers add a little punch to a fire prism if I cannot get and keep rituals on the board -- as well as generating power that can speed the drawing of cards. This more than offsets the advantage my deck has -- enough tritons to afford to cover other tritons simply to trigger the ritual/prism effect (without having to rely so much on the expensive process of recalling waveriders).
But I actually prefer my choice of triton minions. This preference is based mainly on abstract analysis -- I think convincing empirical evidence of superiority of, say, assassins over warmachines would require results of literally hundreds of games.
I do not want to compare assassins to aquamancers -- the two units play very different roles. But I do want to compare assassins to war machines. I claim that assassins are always the better defensive units. Consider assassins or war machines facing off against a variety of enemy units opposite. Of course, it is necessary to consider two separate cases -- your minion placed first, or your opponent's placed first. Suppose an underdark worm is played opposite your war machine. With no outside influence, the worm will be blocked for 2 of its attack turns before it destroys the war machine. (Remember the war machine takes damage on its turn when it must attack.) The exact same result occurs if you play a war machine opposite an underdark worm. But if the worm is played opposite, an existing assassin, the assassin reduced it to 3/3 on the assassin's turn, then the worm inflicts one damage on the assassin (reducing it to 2/2). The assassin reduces the worm to 2/2 next turn, and the worm does nothing, then the assassin reduces the worm to 1/1 and the worm destroys itself when it attacks. Thus the assassin actually destroys the worm -- after being blocked 3 turns and taking 1 damage. If the worm had been played first, it is easy to see that the worm will destroy the assassin after being blocked for two of its turns and being reduced to a 3/3 creature. Either way, the assassin has been more effective. Make similar comparisons with dragon fish, giant constrictor, pyrohydra, darkling assassin, saberine, or any card of your choice. Virtually every time, a triton assassin fares as well or better than a war machine. Now there is a good reason to choose a war machine over an assassin -- if you have a fire prism in play, but no rituals or only one ritual, high health barriers like trees of life will tend to absorb most of the little prism damage you can inflict -- and war machines can destroy the barrier quickly, allowing the prism to help you stay competitive on the board until a second ritual is drawn. Thus, I prefer assassins, but want a mixture.
You also suggested that triton hunters do not fit the deck because there are not traps to draw -- i.e. they don't synergize well. I'm not sure I agree. Compare them to illusionists. Both cost 2, both have 2 strength, both are evasive. But the hunter has an extra health to withstand a magic missile or a fire rain. Of course, the illusionist does have a usable power, but I'm not sure that power offsets the lesser health. Certainly if I have limited gold for cards, hunters are the cheaper option.
Finally, I am not certain that pyromancers are superior to pearldivers. Pearldivers are very cheap triggers of triton ritual. And if a pearl has been played, the diver's ability to recall it is nearly as effective in generating power as the pyromancer special (but it might be even more desirable to recall sunken treasure or fire prism). Of course the diver is a bit more vulnerable.
I am uncertain about the sink card. Reduced enemy strength enables my weaker assassins and war machines to effectively block more big minions. And the draw a card feature prevents them from wasting space in my hand -- as long as I have a target to play them on. But I'm not sure other cards (like fluidity) aren't even more useful.
I am also torn on your choice of rainbow pearls over more shimmer pearls. The shimmer pearls are much easier to use. But the rainbow pearls can be used to store some power from a turn when you have power to spare, in order to have that power to make a play in addition to deploying fire prism. From playing both, which do you prefer?
I finally unlocked Fire Prism and had the chance to test the deck for a few games. I'm missing a couple of Aquamancers though, so this is the list I was playing:
4x ancient turtle
3x triton assassin
3x triton warmachine
4x triton waveriders
2x triton aquamancers
4x triton ritual
4x sunken treasure
4x fire prisms
4x captured flame
Concerning minions, I believe I should add one more Triton Assassin and two more Triton Aquamancers. They could take the place of the three Triton Warmachines (I don't want to play too many cost 4 cards). It is true that Triton Warmachines have greater thoughness, but I feel their ability is nearly useless in this deck. I might consider to keep a couple (hardly more) after more playtesting, just to ease the death of barriers absorbing too many damages from Fire Prism.
My other concern is on the non-minion part of the deck. I'm playing 4 Shimmerpearl and 4 Captured Flame, while you are both playing just a few power generators: do you think that 8 is too many? What I find to be difficult is to survive long enough to set the board. Because once done, this deck can wipe out everything. Quintivarium, I must admit that now I'm thinking of Sink as a card that could fit...
As usual, I'm waiting for your and Milo's comments. I would also like Orange to join the conversation. And everyone else who's interested of course!
I'm not real happy with my deck -- it needs to establish one prism and two or three rituals faster. Milo's ancient turtles are a big improvement, but still not enough for my taste. By the way, I am not impressed with fluidity as a solution either -- sunken treasure works much better with this deck, but I'm already using that.
I found power generating cards are helpful when I have prisms but not rituals as they can trigger some useful damage. Yes, my deck has fewer such items than yours, but I am using 4 pearl divers, which often recall a used pearl, so my deck may play extra power almost as often as yours -- I don't think I would recommend shedding those cards unless you own pearl divers (I would not buy pearldivers just for this deck as they don't have a lot of great uses and I think they are rare). By the way, in many cases, the cheap tritons play as well or better than the expensive ones. Triton hunters do not seem impressive -- but they trigger triton ritual as well as assassins at a fraction of the cost.
I think you have done a very good job with a "cheap" prism deck. My biggest concern is that you only have 14 tritons (my original deck had 24). This makes a substantial difference in how often you can sacrifice a triton just to inflict a point or two of damage.
Milo (and everyone else of course), after some playtesting I want to share some ideas with you. Let me know what you think:
1) I believe the point is not getting the combo faster but staying alive longer, that's way I'm trying Sink (as suggested by Quintivarious), I'm playing no Sunken Treasure (I know both you and Quintivarious won't deprive yourself of your drawing machines...) nor Fluidity and I considered also Sirens for a while. Which thing takes me to point 2.
2) I feel the deck doesn't require that many tritons to work. You're playing 16 while I'm playing 12, but I think I could go down to 10 or even eight. Would you consider doing the same?
3) I don't think Pearldivers' ability is that useful in this deck. I would play them just because they are cheap, but they do not help when it comes to surviving (see point 1).
4) I'm not sure whether I should play 4 Shimmerpearl and 4 Captured Flame or less than that. Quintivarious already suggested to keep both full sets since I do not play any Triton Pearldivers, but I do not really need them as "extra" damage while just as power sources (playing a first turn Ancient Turtle is quite encouraging, but it happens only if you play this many).
Hey Mad, Sorry it took so long for a reply.
To answer your bullets above...
1) I think it is a combination of the two. You need to stay alive until you have the combo. That and you need to win when the opponent has item and aura killers. Some of it is finesse... If you know how to play Sink well, do that. I pour cards into my hand and have no issue discarding 3-4 that I deem low priority based on the cards I have seen the opponent play. If you are better at recognizing their key card and stuffing it with a Sink then I am all for it. I really think that is the area to play around with in this deck. I had listed out the cards I think are Core. The rest can be debated over ;-)
Sirens might be cool but there are already a lot of creatures... I mean minions in the deck.
Fluidity is a weird card... Personally if I saw it as a necessary component then I would be admitting the rest of your deck isn't built well. Why would I put myself ever in a situation where the cards in my hand are so bad that I am willing to ditch them all? Maybe I am missing something...
2) BAM ! sir you are correct. It doesn't require many tritons... just the right ones. And, I want all of my cards to work in many situations...
I don't have the magic combo... I got divers and chests. I want to kill minions... I got divers with 3 rits and a prism. I want to block a minion for one round... I got a diver to sack that is only costing one. That is why they are in my deck. (please apply that logic to all my chosen cards as the divers were just an example)
Not for any one reason. It goes back to Fluidity. Why would I build a deck that has a chance of giving me a hand of cards I want to throw away? For any reason? Seriously... Either you have 5 cards in your hand that are more useful than burning them with fluidity or you have 5 bad cards in your hand and fluidity... Both indicate bad choices in deck creation. I am sure you can get away with less Tritons but the deck is probably a bit different flavor at the point of 8. Which is fine as long as the flavor isn't crap. Just less of a Triton deck.
3) They aren't the stars of my deck but... see above. I only run two and they were a big part of the 'tweaking' stage.
4) They are horrible 'extra damage' in this deck. You are correct sir! 3 rits and a prism happens a lot for me (or else I lose quickly and horribly). One debatably good diver does more damage in a turn than a pearl, but! the pearl may be what allows you to play the diver. In my last game with this deck I played a prism to zero power, dropped a pearl for 1, played a diver for 3 (3rit 1prism on the table) then played a waverider for free, my second pearl up to 4, picked my rider up for 1 and played it again for 3. It was a really cool combo but its not that rare. I already played a pearl once but had a diver opposite some zombies pulling the pearl up each turn. I actually played the second diver on top of the first... who cares. I didn't need two and the first one did its job already...
Anyhow. Ranting on... Really I think it is about what works for you. The core is the core. I don't think lots of tritons gets anyone anywhere. We only have 5 lanes... more tritons does not = better. I think the prism is what makes the ritual awesome. The waverider makes it cheating. This was the point of my original post. Maybe new cards in the future will make it cool in a different way. Hopefully so.
While I generally agree with you, I do want to bring up a couple of additional points/responses.
1. My biggest challenge with the deck is not getting/keeping enough rituals. Giant turtles are actually a big help, but I still am not happy with the speed of drawing them. Its even worse if I face natural order or calm seas or other effects that take them. Making the deck effective with zero or one rituals is the big challenge for me. That is the reason I like to include pearl divers -- cheap play plus ability to draw a card that generates still more damage.
2. The point of fluidity is not to exchange 5 cards I don't ever want; it is to improve odds of getting one card I critically need for the current situation -- something similar in spirit to using sunken treasure not to refill a depleted hand, but to give more play choices even if it wastes cards. That said, I have found I do not like fluidity in this deck -- it is too often my hand only has two or three cards, in which case sunken treasure is far preferable.
3. I do not consider the prism/ritual/waverider combo "cheating". Yes, it is very powerful, but it is hard to set up and not that impossible to counter -- even after being established. If you can make a good prism/ritual deck work consistently, I credit good design and good play -- not cheesy use of cards. Now using aquamancers in your deck is another issue; but one off topic for this thread. :)
4. What I like best about MadAdaM's post is the notion that very few tritons are really needed. He is correct. I use lots so I have tritons to throw away when I have only 1 prism and 1 ritual in play. But fewer tritons opens the option of supplementing some other fire/ocean theme with a prism/ritual combo.
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